Adam Mitchell (00:02)
Okay. I want to welcome everybody back to this episode of Shugyo. Today, I'm so privileged to be joined by my friend, Nick Kemp. Tell you a little bit about Nick and then I'm going to hand the mic over to him because we have got an awful lot to talk about. Nick is the Ikigai coach. He's a father, husband. He's a Japanologist, researcher, solopreneur, and the author of Ikigai -Kan, Feel a Life Worth Living. He's a founder and head coach of Ikigai Tribe.
Which is a small community of educators psychologists coaches and trainers who serve their personal communities using the Ikigai concept I'm sure you probably have heard the word Iki guy and if you have and I am sure that You have heard Nick's voice with his incredible podcast before we get started Nick I just really want to take this opportunity before we kick off our conversation because I
I acknowledge that oftentimes in the work that we do, we don't see the concentric effects that we often create through the work that we do. And I want to tell you from someone who has a life that your work has touched, I want to thank you. And I'm also sure that I'm not alone. I'm sure that through your podcast, through your incredible book here, which I want everybody, if you have not read this, you need to stop this episode right now.
hop on over to his website and purchase it because it will shift your lens. It will change a lot of things and especially if you're someone who is into Japanese arts, culture, if you're into bettering your life, increasing your performance in your work, in your relationships, this is something that is a must have on your bookshelf. Nick, I just wanna thank you and share my gratitude for the work that you've done for myself and for many. It really is...impactful and you are doing an incredible job. So before we get started, just thank you so much, man.
Nick Kemp (02:03)
Thank you so much. That's a real joy to hear. It's always a pleasure to know that's the work you do impact someone and real joy to be catching up with you and really happy and honored also to be a guest on your podcast. So thank you for having me.
Adam Mitchell (02:18)
Thanks. Nick, I wanna, as we were talking about before we hit the record button, I want to sort of extract your experience as someone who traveled to Japan, lived in Japan, and sought out this foreign and very, at the time I'm sure in your life, a unique way of looking at the world and...you ended up finding this concept called Ikigai. You found it and as I understand through reading your book, it created a whole, you were able to discover a definition of it that had changed within you. You took this, you brought it back, you studied it and not only did you study it, but you studied it and sort of opened up the English speaking world.
I mean, there had been books written about this, sure, but you have brought in the community of educators, of people who have PhDs and the stuff, and people who study at universities in Japan and throughout the world. You have brought in people of all different types of life that have used and understand Ikigai, and you have created something quite monumental. I'd like to really dive into the story of Nick and how this happened.
And then for our listeners and for the people who are watching this on YouTube, then we can talk more about some of the specific, uh, some of the specifics about Ikigai. Maybe, you know, there's a lot of misunderstanding, of course, and, and they can, you know, I'm going to have a whole bunch of links. People can kind of learn about your work and sort of demystifying it and bringing a deeper definition to Ikigai for your listeners. We'll point them all over there right now. Really the focus is.
Nick Kemp (03:57)
Sure.
Adam Mitchell (04:15)
on you. Let's take a minute and go back to the beginning here of your story and lead us up to a little bit here where you were introduced to Ikigai and what got you there.
Nick Kemp (04:30)
Yeah. So it is an interesting story in that it was a very casual introduction. So I think in the book I mentioned, I first, I actually first went to Japan in 1977. Um, when I was like five and that was only a few days, but I had still have some vague memories of that trip, some fun memories. Then I went back in 95 to become a trainee chef and was willing to cook. And then I.
Moved out of hospitality and went back two years later and to teach English like many people did and maybe still do. And, you know, being young and ambitious. I was really into learning Japanese. And I remember after the first week of training, I was given the location of my school. And so I went in for the first day of work and on this lunch break while walking to a cafe or restaurants.
I was sort of trying to use all my Japanese and probably to impress the coworker. And she casually asked, Nick, what's your Ikigai in Japanese? And I'm like, Oh, what's Ikigai. And she gave me this amazing definition. that sort of led me thinking, wow, you have one word that articulates all that like purpose and the reason on what the reason why we battle on in life. And it was so inspiring. I thought, wow, because obviously at the time I was wanting to learn lots of Japanese words. And I remember going back into the staff room and asking the other foreign teachers like, Hey, have you heard of this word? No one had. And yet really.
Made me think, and I was sort of thinking about it, obviously, the rest of that day in that evening. And I was so looking forward to going into work the next day to talk to this coworker about the word. And yeah, I walk in and I say, Oh, where's, I can't remember a name, but I sort of said, Oh, where's Santa? And they said, Oh, she's been transferred. And I remember the disappointment. Um, and yeah, I mean, the irony of all this is the word is not.
Adam Mitchell (06:38)
Wow.
Nick Kemp (06:47)
often used. You'd know that like yari -gai is far more used, which is relatable to the word, but yari -gai meaning something worth doing or something rewarding. So I never really heard the use of ikigai after that, despite living in Japan for like eight years. So it's really unusual that in one conversation, someone introduced it to me casually. Yet after that, I never really
Adam Mitchell (06:52)
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (07:16)
heard it or if I had heard it, it didn't have the sort of the same profound impact.
And then it was actually after I'd left Japan and that, you know, I discovered the Venn diagram and all these romantic notions linked to the word that I thought, I remember that word, but that's not how it was explained to me. And that sort of started this journey of, you know, researching it and talking to Japanese and non -Japanese about it.
Adam Mitchell (07:52)
What was the first step on that journey, Nick?
Nick Kemp (07:56)
Yeah, this is one of those moments in your life where you've got this little voice saying, you should do something about it. Like everything about the concept is factually wrong online. And I was like, well, can't be me. Like I, I'm not a psychologist. I had to have no academic background. So I kind of put it off. I kept on putting off, but there was this little voice saying, this is wrong. So I almost saw it as an injustice to.
Japanese culture, like this amazing word. And we were thinking it's this sweet spot or these romantic links. So eventually I sort of caved into my better true version of myself, I guess, and thought, okay, well, if I could get a podcast going, and if I could get a researcher or a Japanese author or expert, I knew that would be a great way to offer the Japanese perspective.
And I remember the day thinking, sort of telling us of just by domain email this, this researcher who happened to appear in several blog posts. And that's what I did. So it was this, just this idea to try and investigate it with the hope of, um, offering, you know, a respectful perspective. And luckily.
Professor Hasegawa, Akihiro Hasegawa Sensei agreed to that first episode and he was so courageous because his English is, you know, minimal, very, very little English skill. So he was very courageous and I'll be forever grateful to him because that really kicked it off.
Adam Mitchell (09:40)
It's an incredible episode. Yeah. And if my memory is correct, the person who was responsible for the Venn diagram you got on your podcast, which so much respect. I love the disruptive nature of that. It's great. And kind of like, I mean, also respect to him for coming on it. And, and it, yeah, like I didn't really want to go into that in this episode, but there's so much.
Nick Kemp (09:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Adam Mitchell (10:09)
There's so much to that because one Google search on Ikigai and that's just boom. That's all you're going to get is that Venn diagram. And you actually call it, wasn't he like something about him living on an oil platform or is there something about that that I seem to remember some crazy story about his life and when he did that. Uh, so we don't have to dive into that, but let me shift how much since then do you think?
Nick Kemp (10:15)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (10:38)
that your work has shifted the Western idea of this word.
Nick Kemp (10:46)
Oh, if you go online, it seems to have had little impact, but, um, but I mean, just quickly on, on Mark Wynn, who, who merged the purpose of Venn diagram with ikigai, for him, it was just a creative idea. And it took him less than 40 minutes. And it was nothing more than that. It was just an idea to share with his friends and he had no idea it would have this, um, impact.
So that's the irony of that. And then in many ways I'm grateful because if, if that Venn diagram didn't exist, I would not be doing the work that I'm doing. And it does. It's usually the first step for someone to find me that found the Venn diagram. They get inspired. They do more research, more searching on Google. And then they, um, they'll find my podcast or website. It's, it's had a strong impact in that it's, it seems to profoundly impact certain people who are interested in either Japanese culture or just interested about learning about themselves or exploring what life could mean to them. So sometimes I get these emails and they, now they blow me away. Like, like yours, um, like my cohorts where I'm, walking through what ikigai is. Yeah, sometimes we share very intimate private details of our life, it gets emotional. So it has that impact. So a small but profound and meaningful impact for for me.
Adam Mitchell (12:24)
I'd say this is probably a good time for anybody who's listening to this who doesn't, this is the first introduction they have to Ikigai. What does it mean? What's your definition?
Nick Kemp (12:37)
Yeah. So this is both an easy answer or a challenging answer. I like to refer to the definition of a meek or cameo who I like to call them the mother of Ikigai So you have Ikigai sources in your life that can be people, relationships, goals, even small joys like, you know, your, your morning cup of coffee, maybe a dedication to an art or a craft or a martial art such as yourself. And then from that source, you experience emotion or you can even embody it, feel it in your body. But it's really the things in your life that make you feel that life is worth living. So even just the laughter of your children could be that one thing in a day where you think, ah, it's so nice to hear them laugh. good to be alive or it could be something you dedicate your life to like a you know shokunin like these Japanese craftsmen and that pursuit just is ongoing and it's incredibly meaningful and fulfilling and satisfying for them so that's sort of the best answer is to ask yourself what makes my life feel worth living and hopefully you have multiple answers and it's not just
Adam Mitchell (14:03)
Right.
Nick Kemp (14:07)
One perfect answer where it's your whole life is, you know, bliss or something.
Adam Mitchell (14:15)
Yeah, this is where the conversation gets interesting. And in the part in your book where you're referencing Ikigai no suite, you referenced that there are actually, I believe there's kind of those two questions. And like you just said, what makes your life worth living every day? But then there's also, how does one find a new Ikigai when they've sort of lost that reason to live and they feel empty? Could you say a little bit about that? Because...
Nick Kemp (14:39)
Mm.
Adam Mitchell (14:44)
What I find interesting about that question is, you know, really, especially like in the martial arts, where it's not, it's not the, it's the path, it's the do, it's not so much the accomplishment of or achieving something, it's the path that you're on. And I'm wondering if that reference that Mieko Kamiya is, that question that she's asking, is that,
Nick Kemp (15:03)
Mm.
Adam Mitchell (15:14)
the Ikigai, is it the finding of the Ikigai? And I know you get into this later on in the book, but in your perspective, did you have those questions or what were some of the questions that you first asked yourself? Because for me, this is one of the things that I bumped up against. I was like, is it going out and finding a new Ikigai or is it the discovery process of the Ikigai that becomes that...that feeling of a life worth living.
Nick Kemp (15:47)
Yeah, this is interesting because I mean, obviously I knew it wasn't the Venn diagram. So I knew it wasn't some ultimate goal. Living in Japan and understanding the culture, I had some awareness it's more about process or...smaller things and sense of, um, sense of growth over achievement of goal, for example. Um, but I mean, I approached it more like I want to learn as much as I can. And that led me to discovering, uh, me, a call cameo. One thing that she said is when you do lose your Ricky guy, it's often a collapse of your value system, meaning.
Adam Mitchell (16:31)
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (16:33)
A good example might be you're in love, you've married someone, everything's going great. And then you find out even before you married, they were cheating on you with your best friend. And so all these values you might have of love, commitment, transparency, honesty, you may feel they've kind of violated you. Like you believed in them and now...this horrible things happen, you've lost this love of your life, it's destroyed your best friendship. You know, and in extreme cases, it might be the actual loss of a loved one who dies. I mean, a really good example of that is Ricky Gervais's Afterlife. I don't know if you've seen that series, it's a comedian, but yeah, it starts with him, he's just lost his wife who he
Adam Mitchell (17:23)
No. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yes I have. Yeah.
Nick Kemp (17:31)
loved and he's struggling to live. And in the process of that series, you see him kind of regain a sense of Ikigai for new friendships, new relationships. So one thing is crucial that it's definitely tied to your values. So that's
That's one thing to keep in mind. And then the other idea is if you're looking for Rikigai, it obviously means you feel you don't have it. And then if you do have it, then you're likely that you you're not looking for it. And your life is satisfied by various things. And this is so weird, because it's just a word, a word that Japanese don't often use. And when you ask Japanese,
what is their Ikigai, they'll often say, oh, it's my pet, or the most recent person told me it was camping with his friends. Yet, as you now know, there's a huge body of research behind Ikigai, it's growing, it's been linked to logotherapy, existential, positive psychology, elements, obviously, even philosophical elements. So it's also the subject of research and study.
Uh, so trying to go back to your question, but I guess for me it was finding the work of Miku Kamiya and she obviously had this personal quest to define it and learn how one could experience Ikigai even under extreme hardship. And, you know, in the book I write about how she spent time interviewing.
lepers, Japanese lepers who were shipped off mainland Japan. They were promised this, you know, really great life and it was a complete lie. Their basic needs were met, but other than that, yeah, it was up to them to try and make meaning and sense of their life. And obviously most didn't, they struggled with their condition and this lack of acceptance from society. But some could.
And so that the handful that could was really interesting. There's one story where she talks about this blind man who had no fingers fell in love with learning the harmonica. And he would learn to read music with Braille using his lips and tongue. And he was so dedicated to it. He would read it to the point where his lips and tongue would bleed. And that was his icky guy, you know, learning the harmonica and playing the harmonica would give him a sense that life is worth living.
Adam Mitchell (20:18)
What would you say, one of the things for me that studying a Japanese art such as Kobudo is that I had to really relearn how to learn and be able to do so under a Japanese teacher where I'm a sort of, I was a rebellious kid.
I would always kind of question the status quo. I would always look for, instead of looking for the reason in the lesson, I would look for what's the pushback in the lesson. Like, where's the point of argument I can find here? And that, as you know, that just did not jive in the dojo. I'm curious to hear, what were some of the obstacles in your research, in your discovery process of Ikigai that
Nick Kemp (20:55)
Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (21:14)
not only did you, you can reflect back on and say, yeah, that was it, that was it, in the moment I didn't know it was a sticking point, but now looking back, it certainly was, or did that come in sort of a moment of an aha moment where you're like, oh wow, okay, now I get that, and all of a sudden things really expand for you.
Nick Kemp (21:36)
That's yeah, that's interesting. I think the experience was a bit different. I think when I first went to Japan, when I was much younger, I had that resistance and that judgment like, I just think,
know, Japanese put salt on watermelon. How weird is that? Or or just things I found unusual, I would instantly judge or I think all these said expressions, they say the same thing every day. It's becomes meaningless. And so I had that resistance or almost this negativity to things I thought were unusual.
So I'm probably lucky in that once I started getting into Ikigai, I was a little bit more older and mature, maybe a little bit wiser. And I was having it learn and didn't have any resistance. It was more that it was there's all these different perspectives of Ikigai even among Japanese researchers. And so I thought I'm ready to embrace them all. And
Yeah. I mean, there's someone like Ken Mogi who will call ikigai a spectrum of small things. And he'll say he can easily identify a hundred sources of ikigai in his life from his morning cup of coffee to running to having engaging conversations to researching. And he really lives that life. You, if you know Ken, he's got this amazing life. He's always running and making short videos in Japanese and English on, on YouTube almost every day.
sharing these golden nuggets of wisdom. And then I'd find a book, one book written by Tsukasa Kobayashi, written a long time ago, it's only in Japanese, but it's Ikigai, the road to self -actualization. And he would relate Ikigai to the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, this desire to grow or to self -actualize. And he would say, you know, your play,can't be your ikigai. That's a asobi gai So asobu is the verb for play. So that's just play worth doing. And your work can't be your iki gai That's just work worth doing. So he'll say it's this sort of high level thing that then sort of makes it hard to attain or not attain, I guess that yeah, attain or access because it's like, well, okay, I have to self actualize now. So if you're like, you know,
Adam Mitchell (24:22)
Mmm.
Nick Kemp (24:25)
So I was open to all these different perspectives and then I guess I like to present them. And then you have someone else saying, oh, you guys tie to your social world and it's more about relationships. And then we have these sub theories, which we touched on like, Ibasho like this place to be. And it goes on and on and on.
And I've really embraced the idea of, I'll just learn it all.
Adam Mitchell (24:58)
Have you found that through your work now that people look at the path and the coaching or the learning of Ikigai to that they have to have self -actualization before they can achieve that?
Or is Ikigai in working towards, like for example, being able to acknowledge that spectrum, like you just said, is that something that helps lead them to that self -actualization? You know, I know that for me, my first introduction to the word, Nick, was I was in a really low, very low point in my life. And my then business partner, in the Japan Art Center that I was running, Sharon Nakazato, she's an older woman and she was, she's a Shodo master and she's very, very steeped in this level type of philosophy. And we were sitting in the floor of the, on the floor of the dojo one day and I was really, really down. And she explained to me that you need to lift yourself up.
and be able to discover your iki gai. And this purpose will give you the momentum that you need to be able to carry yourself forward. But right now, you won't discover that unless you lift yourself up. And I've always sort of, when this word comes up or we have these conversations, I really wonder about that.
Nick Kemp (26:21)
Oh, wow.
Adam Mitchell (26:45)
emotion that I was having in that moment because it really helped me to, you know, you say like, you know, the importance of creating a bright future. And that Ikigai sort of like became, okay, there's this North Star. I will have purpose, I will have meaning, and that will come. The Ikigai will appear, it will appear itself.
Nick Kemp (26:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Adam Mitchell (27:13)
so long as I work towards whether it's, you know, whether it's Kamiya's seven Ikigai needs and making sure I'm sort of checking the boxes on those. But knowing that there's a bright future ahead, I need to lift myself up and the Ikigai will appear. And I'm curious, that's really sort of an interesting point of, I don't know, reflection or study. And I was just fascinated to hear your feedback on that one thing there.
Nick Kemp (27:36)
Hmm.
Yeah, that is a crucial point. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's what does also appeal to me. It's, it's more like you have this sense your life is moving forward. And yeah, that's, that ties into a definition that it's, it's, um, it's not just a state of wellbeing. It's also this sense. You feel your life is moving forward and it's, it's not a fixation on the achievement of a goal where like, oh, once I achieve this, I'll be happy, which we.
Adam Mitchell (27:43)
Anything around that.
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (28:13)
have this tendency to do in the West, it's more like I have something to work towards. Oh, I have things in my life to look forward to. And you have this, this path that might be a bit uncertain or vague, but it's, it's either rather than driving you, it's almost like pulling you. Um, and obviously that gives you a sense of hope. Yeah. Like, Oh, there is something to live for. Cause I feel I'm moving forward to something. And when it's,
I mean, that's subjective and I guess each individual might experience that or will experience that differently. But if it is tied to a strong sense of purpose where you feel like you are of service or you're serving a greater good, then you might feel that feeling more intensely. And that's, that's a crucial.
Adam Mitchell (29:04)
Yeah.
Nick Kemp (29:09)
aspect, but in some way I feel like Ikigai gives you the chance to also find yourself because it ties to, you know, so many things, your values. And I mean, her idea of self -actualization is this idea of the joy of creation and expressing your unique imagination. And that, that blew me away. So that's one of Kamiya's Ikigai needs. And what an alternative to the...
the Western idea of it's attaining a certain level or being successful or being, you know, the best version of yourself. You constantly hear that in self help. Like we all want to be the best version of ourselves, which is obviously it's unattainable. And it puts this pressure on like I have to be this best version where she's saying use your unique imagination to express yourself. And that can be through something creative.
Adam Mitchell (29:56)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (30:08)
but it can be through a role. It can be through your work. So that's what I do in my work. I've used my unique imagination to create, you know, this, this community. And I think once you're doing that, you're...
You're being jibun rashii. So that's, there's so many words that articulate these ideas that I just love. Like, ah, I can be the person I want to be. Jibun rashii. The, the person I see worthy of me. It's a little bit hard, but the person I want to be comes from me pursuing ikigai.
And I guess my Ikigai, one of my Ikigai, obviously researching Ikigai and sharing it with, you know, the world.
Adam Mitchell (31:03)
There's, uh, as, as you're going through those words, I'm thinking of Kokoro Zashi. You referenced that it's like, uh, you know, where the, where the spirit or where the heart moves towards. Right. And, uh, I stumbled on that. I mean, I stumbled over that because in that moment, when I first heard Ikigai, I was like, I don't know, I I'm not going to be able to get out of this. I'm just, things are so low right now. And I don't know if my heart is pointing anywhere.
Nick Kemp (31:09)
Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (31:31)
And that's when Nakazato sensei explained to me, like it will reveal itself. Your heart is pointing somewhere. You're just, you need to get this clutter out of the way. One of the things I really, um, admire about your work, Nick, in the book is that you don't just, and for someone, maybe any of the listeners who are at a low point right now, which many of us are, and I kind of want to also, I want to unpack, uh, Iba show, like you just mentioned, and I really want to go there. But in this Kokorozashi,
Like if you're in this place where I don't know what I want or I'm, you know, I could tell you, I have for my dojo, I teach adults and we do, you know, with my online work, I try to get a lot of information from the people who inquire about training at my dojo. And I will tell you that much, much higher than nine out of 10 are middle -aged men who.
are who have a great energy. They want to hold on to their vitality, but there's sort of this loss of purpose. Maybe they're in retirement years, the kids have moved out of the house and they're kind of like, what now? Where's my heart pointing? Where's my heart pointing? And what I really respect about your work is that you give, not only do you say, oh, you got to go where your heart is pointing, which a lot of self -help stuff does.
Nick Kemp (32:48)
Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (33:00)
but you actually do provide things for us to look into, like Nikon is an example, right? Like actually how to do this beautiful process of journaling to help you to discover where your heart is pointing, where that kokorozashi is. Could you share maybe a couple of other of those tools or methods that you discovered? Not only the, maybe methods that you found have helped your community that you work with.
Nick Kemp (33:06)
Mm -hmm.
Adam Mitchell (33:29)
But also, what are some of those methods that helped you to see more clearly where your heart was pointing to feel or to be able to step back and see the canvas or the spectrum of your own Ikigai? What helped you there?
Nick Kemp (33:44)
Thank you.
Sure. I mean, I'll share with you, I think even, I mean, before really diving into Ikigai, I did go through periods of, yeah, depression and frustration and struggle and unfulfillment.
So me deciding to research Ikigai and just listening to this intuition, like, you should do something about this. You should interview people. You should start a blog. It gave me this, yeah, this purpose or this sense of purpose. And I had no idea what would happen. And so I remember the day I actually looked up, um,
I really looked into, once I started getting into Iki gai, I really paid attention to the kanji characters of words. And I remember thinking about purpose and looking at the kanji characters of purpose and realized it translated to use life, meaning use your life. And so Shimei Kan, this idea of sense of purpose is the feeling of using your life. And that's just an amazing definition. Like, how can I use my life in a way that's satisfying to me, but beneficial to others or purposeful or meaningful to others? And it kind of was like an epiphany, like that's what people want. They, they know with life experience, if you achieve certain goals, there is this period of, yeah, satisfaction or relation, but then,
It's, you know, it's like, what do I do now? Um, and we're, we're struggling in life to obtain, achieve all these things. And then most of the time when we attain them, we don't have the feeling we thought we would, but the sense of using your life in some way that's beneficial, whether it's small or ambitious seems to really, yeah, make life worth living.
The other thing I've noticed with cohorts is how I have a lot of discussion in my cohorts for the coaching program. So it's not just me two hours speaking about what it is. Most of it's sharing a concept and then saying, let's discuss it. And people really love that. They really appreciate that they have equal opportunity to share their thoughts. And, you know, sometimes my cohorts.
We'll go over by now and I'm happy to do that. And it's really weird. No one's saying, Oh, I have to, I have to get off this call. They're saying, yeah, yeah, I can keep going. So the opportunity to talk about these things seems really valuable. And obviously we don't. And we, we certainly don't have these conversations perhaps with the most important people in our lives. And maybe we.
you know, maybe sometimes we can't because of various complications, but getting a handful of strangers together and by the second week, they're revealing all these personal aspects of their life or they're sharing their perspectives and they know they can do that in a safe and comfortable environment. It leads to this collective learning and I'm like so privileged because I get to learn so much from the others. So I can't remember what your question was.
Adam Mitchell (37:22)
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (37:28)
But I mean, going back to kokorozashi, that blew me away. That was like, and maybe that's the kind of word that would appeal to, you know, the young, ambitious male, like, oh yeah. But again, it's about process and it's about this idea of, yeah, kokorozashi is sort of like the mind, the heart and the spirit as one entity. So it's where your mind's focused on, where you're, you know, where you're
Adam Mitchell (37:32)
Yeah.
Nick Kemp (37:59)
hearts pointed and where your spirit wants to go. And it's like the start of the journey, you know, this is the journey. And as you know, it's sort of rooted in Bushido. And I guess I was told by podcast guests that, you know, samurai would die for their kokorozashi. That's what the commitment was.
Adam Mitchell (38:22)
Yeah, I feel you answered the question quite clearly actually. There were two things that stood out for me, Nick. One was your exploration into the kanji and really breaking it down so that you understood it. And then also the cohorts, which is a great segue into Iwasho.
Nick Kemp (38:36)
Great.
and then also the cohorts, which is a great segue into Ibasho.
Adam Mitchell (38:45)
There is a bit of a flag on the field though that I want to throw and I want to sort of challenge you. And that is in, you know, you, you talked about your own intuition and then you also shared with us your introduction to Iki guy, which was through this girl that in passing set it. And then all of a sudden she disappears, right? She's not there. You know, I had an experience in my life, uh, where I had literally thrown everything away and I had.
Nick Kemp (38:46)
I'm not going to throw a certain challenge. And that's if you talk about your own.
So she had to pass her interruption to the guy who was through this girl at the impasse to the stage. And I'm...
Adam Mitchell (39:12)
I'm not going to get into the details of it because they're pretty crazy. But I ended up on a bicycle in 1993 riding across Canada and I ended up with some on a reservation with some beautiful indigenous people who took me in. And I really truly learned that not belief, but knowing that nothing happens without a reason. This was proven to me.
It wasn't like, oh, coincidence. Oh, well that just happened. So you, you, I just want to tether two things that you, you mentioned. And I want to know if how you really truly believe. And I'm not saying was this like divinely inspired or was it that actually when you let go, the, the road clears itself, like the Dao reveals itself, the path opens itself up. And it doesn't sound to me.
Nick Kemp (39:39)
Okay.
Mmm.
Adam Mitchell (40:09)
based on what I've read in all, every one of your podcasts that I've listened to in the conversations I've had, that this wasn't by chance, that this just didn't happen, that this person showed up and then disappeared while you're sort of bumming around Japan trying to learn a trade. And then all of a sudden this happens. And now you're talking to me about your intuition and it's leading you down these very productive and illuminating pathways. Where do you fall in that?
How do you feel about that?
Nick Kemp (40:40)
feel good about it. I guess I would probably what comes to mind instantly is what I read about in the book, and the idea of the triggers for transformational experiences are all around us. And this is referencing me or cameo again, and that we don't notice them most of the time. Yes. Because we're stressed, we're busy with we're living in thought of the past.
ruminating or anxious about the future. And we miss these triggers. And she wrote that the triggers for transformation exists in our everyday life, and we just don't see them. I mean, I think there are moments in your life where you have this clarity. And if you if you tuned in enough to think, okay, I will do this, I will.
start this, stop this, whatever it is. That is like, you've, you've picked up on, there's been some trigger and you've, you've had this internal conversation that's clear. And it's not you saying, Oh, well, what would I know? I don't know enough or that can't be me or, uh, you know, I can't be bothered or you have this. All right. But for me, it was like this injustice. I thought this is an injustice.
That I can't tolerate. So I will do something about it, but not in a, obviously ego sort of driven way. I just thought I'll start a podcast, but it felt so right at the time. But then if I reflect on the sort of the chain of events that led to this experience, it's the small interactions. So it's yeah, this coworker who only met one day casually asking me what my guy was. It's years later, the Venn diagram, which, you know,
Adam Mitchell (42:11)
Yeah.
Nick Kemp (42:39)
I could say Mark Winn in many ways has changed my life because without that Venn diagram, this would not be happening. We would not be talking. So in many ways, I'm grateful to him. But then had I not had that conversation with that coworker, of course, yeah, even if it saw the Venn diagram, maybe I wouldn't be.
talking with you today. So there's been these little interactions. So I don't know what to call that if that's the universe conspiring to help your God or, or if it's just for some reason in my life journey. At one point, it was a realization subconsciously, or these little things coming together. And I had this one moment of clarity thinking,
I will.
Yeah. I will get a domain name and start a podcast that sets. That was the initial thought to try and share a Japanese perspective. Um, so yeah, I'm just kind of careful of how do you read into that? Cause some people might say, Oh, that's God talking to you. Or some people must say that everything in your life's meant to happen. Or I might just say it was a moment of clarity and I followed my intuition. Yeah. And it's.
Adam Mitchell (44:07)
Yeah, I think all of the, yeah, many of the great faiths and, and, uh, sort of the models of spirituality and religions, I think all of them that have lasted one of the core teachings is that miracles are happening all around us all the time. And, uh, the more we let go, the more we're able to witness and be witness to them. And, uh, you know, I just,
Nick Kemp (44:07)
changed my life.
Adam Mitchell (44:37)
I just wanted to hear, because I'm sure that that happening didn't go unnoticed to you. I'm sure that you're like, wow, this is really growing in people. It's really helping and serving. And I'm sure you acknowledge this.
Nick Kemp (44:55)
Yeah, I mean, I think I let go in that moment, like the fear of, oh, it can't be me and all this negative self talk. I let go and thought, all right.
Adam Mitchell (45:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Kemp (45:05)
I'll start out I'll just I'll just do this. I'll start almost like Ken Mogi starts more I'll just do this and not let any negative self talk sort of drive me away from from it. Obviously, you know, I cared about it. I don't know why it meant so much to me. Obviously, love of Japan and learning and
Adam Mitchell (45:12)
Yeah.
Nick Kemp (45:30)
But yeah, it's weird. We have these thoughts or moments in our life where they might change our life. And we just hope we can be tuned into that moment enough to then take the first step of action. Because often we have those moments and then we go, oh, it's too hard or not today. And then we've lost it forever.
Adam Mitchell (45:49)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. The narrative creeps in the self doubt, the saru. Yeah, I get it. Uh, powerful, powerful. I want to merge back into some of the tools that, you know, when I asked you and you said, you shared about breaking down the actual word and then also sharing about for you as your cohort in your book. Uh, and I want to merge back into Ibasho and the importance, especially today with that. But in the book you reference,
Nick Kemp (46:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (46:23)
this sort of duality of Ibasho for yourself. One is, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I can't remember, but what stood out to me is there's a park or reservation outside of Melbourne that you'd go to and just to do tree bathing and just to walk and be by yourself. And then another one is those cohorts. So here you have this like,
you have this sort of duality from what I'm reading. And again, correct me if I'm wrong, guide me here on this thought. But one is like through, you know, going and seeking, I think you reference it as yutori in nature and just go and being by yourself and disconnecting and letting go is one of your Ibasho. But also being in community and in your place, like for me, of course, it's my dojo.
Nick Kemp (46:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. Space.
Adam Mitchell (47:20)
I mean, my dojo is a canvas of my mind. It is my place. It is where I go to when I need to disconnect. It is my Ibasho. But you really interestingly show these two different ways of Iba sho for Nick. And one is going into the park in solitude and in silence. And the other is in community and connection. Can you unpack that for me a little bit?
Nick Kemp (47:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Sure.
Yeah. So this is where we get into perspectives or just learning, but we should touch on that. I basho originally just means whereabouts like where is the whereabouts of someone. So the, the, the word is a compound of the verb iru meaning to exist and basho meaning place. And then in, I think in the late seventies, Japan started having these.
problems with loneliness or social withdrawal. And it started to be used as a psychological concept of a place where someone can be themselves or where they can feel comfortable, have positive relationships and have that belief in a positive future. But yeah, I started to learn, okay, it can be a place just for yourself, where you feel grounded, you feel comfortable.
It's a place to escape from the chaos of the world. And so it could be for me, it's yeah, it's actually the, it seems like a park, this place I go to, but it's actually like, it seems like a national park because once I'm in there, it's like, wow, I can't see any houses, but it's actually only like 10 minutes walk from where I am. And I actually have been going lately because I've been working too hard and it's, it's kind of showing up. Like I'm a bit stressed and I'm.
Adam Mitchell (49:03)
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (49:17)
I've broken this habit. I'm trying to learn so much. I will listen to a podcast on my walk. So I need to go back to don't take the phone, give myself this space and have this quiet time, this space to have peace of mind is how I call it. You taught me.
But then, yeah, I started to realize through research, oh, there's this idea of social niche where you can be in some community or, you know, small group or something like a dojo where you go there and you're welcomed. You, you feel safe. You have a sense of purpose. There's meaningful engagement and there's something driving it.
you're working towards something and you can drop your guard and be yourself and you there's several papers on this one by Dr. Shintaro Konno who talks about it gives you the chance to be plain meaning you're not trying to decorate yourself and you know pretend you're more than you are and this is crucial I think that we can have these places these social niches where we can go
and just be ourselves and say what we want to say and listen to others. And we're, we're trying to do that, you know, through technology and online. And there's many benefits to, you know, what we're doing now. We it's great. We can connect and have this discussion, but I think the in -person stuff really matters. And this is why we've got all these problems of.
Adam Mitchell (50:36)
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (51:00)
loneliness and social withdrawal. Many people don't have an opportunity to just be themselves in a social context.
Adam Mitchell (51:09)
I do a lot of work with men. And one of the things I'm sure you know about is this epidemic of loneliness among men. And right now, there's, I think it's, I don't know what the statistic, I think I heard the other day, was 48 % of men polled who are over 45 years old don't have one friend that they can call on. And that's, I mean, that's like, just to hear it, it's heartbreaking. And I'm curious, you,
Nick Kemp (51:33)
Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (51:36)
You so beautifully use these two different references in your own EBAW show. Do you see in your cohorts and the people that you work with, the people that you listen to, the guests that you have on your podcast, is there a sweet spot? Is there a balance? Is there a 50 -50 of finding that solitude and then also being in community? Or is it really dependent on the person? What do you say about that?
Nick Kemp (52:02)
I think it's very dependent on the person.
Yeah, we all know there, there's some people who really enjoy their own, own time, own personality, and they struggle with any type of social interaction. And yeah, for them, it's...
being grounded or feeling a sense of belonging just might be, you know, with their pet or by themselves or reading a book. So I think it's, yeah, very dependent on personality. But I think to some degree, all of us do need in -person contact. And at least if we all had just a few handful of really good friends that we could always call and they could always call on us, it would.
give us that sense that we matter and that others matter.
Yeah, there's this mutual sense of belonging and connection. And yeah, we could argue we've got we've got it all this abundance, we should be all living incredible lives. Yet most of us struggling with loneliness and loneliness is okay. We all have loneliness from time to time. But obviously, when it's prolonged, and it's
impacting your daily life for months on end and you're not yourself, then that's where it's a problem.
Adam Mitchell (53:44)
Yeah, this importance really stands out. I know that in the blue zones and a lot of that longevity work, they talk about the studies that have happened with the elderly in Okinawa and how they're able to, and also like Sardinia and like in these different pockets of the world where one of the most important things is they have daily community and friends and those friends together have this, like this unified sort of purpose. And this is one of the main reasons that each one of them attribute to.
living over a hundred years of happy life and it's really beautiful to see. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Kemp (54:17)
It is beautiful. You know, it's really funny about that concept of Moai. This idea of a small group of lifelong friends is, if it's really funny because they'll say it's almost like if you drink alone, you're probably going to have this early death, but if you drink among friends, the social factor of that seems to give you longevity. So it's, well, that's.
Adam Mitchell (54:26)
That's what it is, yeah.
Is there a science behind that? I wonder if there's been a study.
Nick Kemp (54:47)
I'd love to learn, but because that's what Dan said, you know, here's a group of Okinawans, their average age is 86. You know, they're all drinking, they're still having sex and they're living this great life. And then if you said, oh, this, this man's, you know, no friends, no intimacy. He just drinks, you would assume, oh, well, he's, he's headed for a, you know,
early grave. So social connection and laughter and fun and sharing seems to yeah, really have all these positive well being and mental physical effects.
Adam Mitchell (55:32)
Yeah, there's so much here that I want to talk about. There's so much in the book, Nick, just in the book, not on the, I mean, if you want to go into the podcast, man, you're gonna, you're gonna get lost. You're gonna go, you're just not going to be able to switch over. Do you, you know, put down Joe Rogan for a little while or whatever podcast you listen to and listen, listen to, uh, uh, Ikigai tribe podcast. Um,
Nick Kemp (55:48)
I'm sorry.
Adam Mitchell (55:55)
I want to talk about the relationship and the studies that you reference around flow state. There's so many other things that I want to talk about and I know we're up on time here and I want to be respectful of that. However, there's a word that you introduce in the book that I love and I would love to hear you talk more about it. It's arugamama as it is, right? And the nature of how things truly are. And I'd never heard that word before and I was like, that is amazing.
Nick Kemp (56:06)
with that. However, there was...
Ah.
Adam Mitchell (56:24)
Could could you tell me something more about this or talk about it because you really you speak about it in your book and you and you spotlight it but I'd like to hear from you more about what that word means and how that how it can be thought of in the scope of our Iki guy.
Nick Kemp (56:43)
Yeah, this is another one of my favorite words. So Aruka mama, so Aru again, to exist and mama, I guess, as that state. And you'd know this like in Japan, when you go to Japan, you hear these expressions of acceptance, like shogunai, like I can't be helped. And I remember early in my learning Japanese days when in Melbourne, I'd been making friends with Japanese and
you know, something would happen, we would have a plan and it would be canceled because of rain or whatever. Yeah, I'd hear this expression shogunai like, and I thought, wow, Japanese say this a lot, like, and they would also ask me, what does shogunai, how do you say shogunai in English? And I'm like, oh, I'm not sure, like, and you sort of come up with, it can't be helped, or there's no way, like as in this, there's no way to...
solve this, I wish you just acceptance. So this idea of acceptance.
I actually had initial resistance to it maybe because I was young and naive. So this theme of acceptance in Japan was something I was aware of like Japanese, they have far more challenges than most countries with their natural disasters, for example, but they seem to accept it and regroup and build and move on. And then yes, out of when out of go mama came into the research.
It really took me a while to understand it, but it's this concept of understanding the true nature of things.
And if you can, if you understand the true nature of things, it allows you to adapt and flow to life. Whereas if you have this resistance, why me, why does this always happen to me? Or how can I solve this? Just stuck the next stagnation, you're stopping yourself from flowing with life. And it's
It's not a conscious act where you say, Oh, this is out of the mama, like, I'll just accept it. It's, it's like you've conditioned yourself for life experience to move with the ebbs and flow of life because you just think, well, this is, you know, this is the true nature of things. And you acknowledge it and then kind of let it, let it go quickly rather than trying to process it.
cognitively and analogically and.
I mean, I guess the only Western version is it is what it is, but it's more, it seems to sound better when it's out of gunpowder and deeper this idea. It's just the true nature of things. So if we can approach it like that, we seem to then let it go quickly. And we adapt and move on. So it's.
Adam Mitchell (59:50)
Hmm.
Nick Kemp (59:58)
Yeah, I think it's actually part of something called monitor therapy. It's used in monitor therapy, but I think it's a Zen term, actually. And so we all know Zen is about this understanding of the true nature of things and
It also might have a connection with nature as in if we're in tune with nature, we have all these benefits to life. But if man is deluded and thinks they can control nature, this is where we get into problems.
And so, yeah, obviously we're trying to dominate nature, the natural world, and we have all these problems. Whereas nature kind of teaches us Aruka Mama, like seasons change.
things die, but they come back, they regrow. And so when you're in tune with that, yeah, that's, that's Arugamama. You adapt and flow with life.
Adam Mitchell (1:01:07)
Thanks for breaking that down. That makes a lot better sense for me at least. Two last questions. One is for the listener. We had kind of sort of mentioned this a little bit earlier and I'd referenced, you know, there's probably someone listening who just is like, I don't...
Nick Kemp (1:01:10)
Mm.
Adam Mitchell (1:01:32)
I'm not, maybe I'm not depressed, maybe I am, but I just don't really feel as though I have a direction in my life right now. I don't have any, I don't have that icky guy that these guys are talking about. It's kind of easy for you to say, but I just, you know, I'm at this place where I don't have that. Nick, what's the, what's the starting point for that person? What's that one step that they can take after listening to our conversation?
Nick Kemp (1:01:45)
Mm.
There's a few things I think we need to be clear that he guys is not, it's not the Japanese secret to happiness. So we shouldn't equate ikigai to happiness. Ikigai. If we go back to the needs of Kamiya Mieko, the most fundamental need is life satisfaction. So I think regardless of what we're going through, we can always probably find some life satisfaction in something if we're.
if we're present or if we're grateful enough for what we already have and you know that could be just that.
We live in a safe country or we have access to all these small joys, you know, coffee, food, music. We have all these freedoms. So be clear that it's, it's about life satisfaction and this idea that you're moving forward. And so probably the idea of moving forward is, is where we struggle. Because.
Yeah. If you're living on repeat every day and you're thinking, Oh, why am I, what's the point of it all? Like I'm just living the same day every day. That is hard. So I think you've really got to tap into your values, but also.
it's almost like tapping into the the wisdom of the the inner child. And when I say the inner child, I'm sort of saying this, this playful version of yourself.
Adam Mitchell (1:03:33)
Hmm. That's interesting.
Nick Kemp (1:03:41)
that.
loved or loved something that you can still explore as an adult. And...we lose that we lose that ability to find what's intrinsically motivating and go with and we, you know, once we become a teenager and a young adult, we're worried about career and what am I going to do? So if you can find that, or if there is this inner voice saying, there's an injustice that you need to correct, whether it's just a small thing, or if there's is you can create this internal conversation of what do I care about? What do I want to change?
In focusing on something else that you care about seems to change you and then give you all these things we've talked about a sense of purpose, change and growth. This feeling you're moving forward. Now not everyone needs that. I've got a friend who's pretty much happy to live the same day over and over. He's single and he's got a lot of freedom and he loves movies and he has no desire to find a craft or better himself. He's very happy. But I know for many of us, yeah, we want something more out of life. We want a sense of purpose that we're contributing. So maybe it is about contribution and finding your way to contribute. It might take a while. Even Kami Amirko said,
We all have this vague sense of purpose and it may take us a while to find it. But she said there's three ways to find your sense of purpose or your purpose in life. And that's from a conscious choice or through an area of interests. So maybe when we were younger, we had all these interests and we were giving them up because society told us to work hard and buy house and be successful.
Or it may be through, you know, fate where it finds you. And maybe Ikigai for me was like a combination of all those things that were these elements of serendipity, but there was this conscious decision of right, I will do something about it. And I was interested in all these ideas of positive psychology and, you know, obviously Japanese culture. But you've got to allow yourself.
So there's also this idea of you feel good about yourself enough to try something, to do something and that you can believe that, yeah, like it's okay for me to explore this and try this because we do kind of beat ourselves up a lot as well. And that stops us from acting on our intuition.
Adam Mitchell (1:06:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. That was a great answer. I really appreciated the part about playfulness. That was a whole nother thing that, you know, I've heard mentioned on the podcast, you touch up, touch on in your book and that going and finding that youthfulness and play. So I'm glad you brought that forward. I'd love to unpack that more, but I want to, um, I don't, I'm going to include in the, in this,podcast, wherever anybody's listening to this, all of the ways to contact Nick and, and join the Ikigai tribe, learn more about his work. It's all going to be there. So I'm not going to ask you how they get in touch with you, but what I do want to know is, uh, Nick, what do you have working on? What are you working on right now? What can we look forward to in 2025, uh, from Ikigai tribe? And, uh, where's, where, where's your, where's your focus right now?
Nick Kemp (1:07:39)
Well, I really think I need to get back to Japan and spend more time in Japan. So there is an idea that I will do, I guess what I'll call it, he got retreats, um, where I would try and take a handful of people somewhere in Japan away from all the tourist hotspots and, and do some sort of conscious, I guess you could call it conscious.
Adam Mitchell (1:07:53)
Cool.
Nick Kemp (1:08:10)
Tourism meets learning about a ikigai and we would find a place where we'd probably stay in that one location. We would learn about a ikigai and learn it through experience. So maybe looking at craftspeople, doing things with nature, being involved with, you know, maybe cooking our own food.
And I'll try and get guests or locals involved. And so really offer a experiential version of, you know, my program. That would be the goal. So there might, the goal is to do the first one this year and see how that goes. And then, yeah, yeah, later this year. And then if it's a success,
Adam Mitchell (1:09:00)
In 2024?
Nick Kemp (1:09:07)
And once I've got a handle on how to do it, do it, you know, two times a year and who knows? I mean, I might end up back living in Japan. Cause it's, it's quite odd. I'm not living in Japan at the moment. My whole life is focused on this word. And so that's, that's what I've got. Look, yeah. To look forward to. And it's.
Yeah, you know, it's a challenge as well. So it's, that's another thing, a meaningful challenge makes your life worth living. So we can all have that too. Yeah.
Adam Mitchell (1:09:45)
I love that. I love that. Well, Nick, I just want to, again, thank you. This has been an incredible and really inspiring conversation. I'd love it if you kept in contact and I'd like to share once you open up that retreat and you have more information about it. I'm sure there's some listeners here that are saying, hey, like, where do I, I'd like to, might want to sign up to that.
Nick Kemp (1:10:07)
Ha ha!
Adam Mitchell (1:10:10)
I know a lot of the people who listen to this podcast travel to Japan once or twice a year and if they could align that trip with something that you're doing That may be something that they're interested in that would be that'd be really cool Thank you so much Nick for taking your time. I'm looking forward to your next work I'm looking forward to hearing from any of the listeners who have read ikigai -kan and What their takeaways were and how you've changed their life and
Yeah, Nick, thank you so much. I appreciate you so much, man. Take care. Thank you.
Nick Kemp (1:10:43)
Thank you, Adam. I'm real joy. It was lovely to hear from you and your, it's always nice when someone reads my book and they share it's impacted them. So it really means a lot to me. So I really appreciate that so much. Thank you. All right.
Adam Mitchell (1:10:56)
Okay. Thanks, Nick.
