[00:00:00 - 00:06:06] Adam Mitchell
the most common errors that people make when comparing traditional martial arts to modern combat sports is misunderstanding the actual use and the application of the traditional martial arts. Now both can certainly support one another as we know. If you're someone who practices MMA or sport karate, that physical fitness and endurance training that you get through that competitive lane can certainly support the lifestyle of traditional karate do. As well, being a traditional karate ka can also support your primary pursuit of the sport application competitive karate. The 2 can go hand in hand, but they are not the same. And comparing one another and saying that to the traditional art isn't as effective or as street worthy as a more modern art or a combat sport only shows an individual's ignorance and misunderstanding and complete lack of education in either because there is a difference. And in this episode, I hope to unpack that and speak to it, Mostly for the students and newer students who are on the path, who are on this journey in the study of the traditional martial arts regardless of what culture they come from.
What I wanna do in this episode is to really focus in on the or the such as judo, aikido, kendo, kobudo. What does the the suffix of mean, and how do we apply that to our own personal commitments? If we're someone who practices the combat sports and competition is our priority, How can we support that with the cultivation of the Dao? If, it's the opposite, if we're someone who's committed to the traditional arts, how can we really center in on the true, purpose of that study and the true nature of what it was developed for and who it's meant to build as an individual and as a martial artist. In this episode, I sit down with my friend, Jack Schaefer. Jack is a practicing Taoist priest. He is a lifelong practitioner of the Asian martial arts.
He's a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu, as well as he has had a lifelong study in the traditional Okinawan karate arts. He's also a traditional Chinese doctor. He's an, as I just said, he's an ordained Taoist priest. And very interestingly, he's the cofounder of Parting Clouds, Taoist Education. And his goal is to bring, authentic Daoist teachings to the western world. So I couldn't find anybody better to be able to speak to this specific topic of the dough or the dao and its place in the traditional arts? And more importantly, in this conversation, how we, as a Western audience, so that we can get the most from the commitments that we give through our life to the martial arts that we study.
So I wanna welcome my friend, Jack, to this episode of Shugyo. I'm glad to have him here, and I know that you're gonna get a lot from this episode. Let's get started. Welcome to Shugyo, reflections on the path to self mastery and forging the way. My name is Adam Mitchell. I'm your host, fellow student along this path. Hey, everyone.
I want to welcome you back to this episode of Shugyo. Today, I'm really happy to welcome Jack Schaefer from the Parting Clouds, Daoist Organization, to this episode. And the goal of this conversation really is to unpack the dough or the do. And I wanted to find someone who had a specific set of experiences, credentials, is and someone who could bridge the conversation from the marshal as well as speak to a higher level of the Tao even going into, Taoism, to traditional Chinese medicine, but also on the opposite side of that bridge, be able to understand the martial culture that many of us exist in, whether that be in the Japanese or the Chinese or the Western cultures. It doesn't make a difference. There's always this this conversation about how the martial arts should be a vehicle for your self control, for your self discipline. It should be a vehicle for you to be able to discover peace, to be able to have agency over your emotions, and to live more of a centered and self aware life.
And martial arts from being an instructor for 25 years of children, I would always hear the parents come in, and I would ask the first question, why martial arts for your kid? Well, I want my child there was and there was never there was never a single answer. There was always a whole suite of answers. I want my child to have self discipline. I want my child to have a good work ethic. I want them to have to have a better sense of self. Very rarely did I hear, I want them to be able to defend themselves in the street.
So there was always these these answers and these reasons that the parents have and that we also, as an adult, who pursue specifically even the traditional arts versus combat sports, but the traditional martial arts that have an origin story in areas of spiritual or philosophical context, such as classical Taoism. And we have we study these arts that that are carried over like judo, aikido, in these different schools of budo.
What is the Dao? That's really what we wanna get out of this conversation today. And how can we go forward in our own study, in our own practice to have a new and rediscovered meaning of what this is so that our practice and our study and the commitment of our life's time that we apply to that can have greater definition, more purpose, and thus ultimately, fulfilling that goal that we're looking for in the study. Jack, welcome to this episode of Shugo. I'm really happy to have you here.
00:06:07 - 00:06:13] Jack Schaefer
Thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited of this conversation. This is one I've thought a lot about through the years myself.
[00:06:14 - 00:06:37] Adam Mitchell
So Great. Before we get started, Jack, tell us a little bit about your background. We talked before recording. I've certainly read quite a bit about you, and you've got a colorful and really just steeped with an incredible amount of experience. So where do we start and bring us up to on your journey? I mean, I know we could be here for a long time on that, but give us give it your best.
[00:06:37 - 00:17:20] Jack Schaefer
Yeah. We could spend an hour probably in this conversation. It's weird. I it's a question that I really I get, and I don't necessarily like answering. It's it's I feel weird doing the bio thing. Yeah. But I'll give you kind of the greatest hits of it, I suppose.
I got into martial arts as a pretty young kid in that like 6 or 7 range. And my parents put me in judo. When I was really young, I was really interested in martial arts. I don't really know why.
Maybe it was watching TV and movies. Some of it was clearly from my father. My father was a a Vietnam vet. And, you know, when I was a kid, he would he showed me some boxing and some of the things you know, he learned a little bit of judo in in the military. And and, maybe it was that. I don't really know, but I liked it. I had a lot of energy. So my parents stuck me in judo.
And and, you know, I stayed in that for quite a while. But at that same time, I lived a few doors down from the the person who would become my 1st karate teacher. And, he you know, I was maybe, like, 6 or 7, and he didn't teach kids my age, but I was really interested. I'd see him come and go carrying his gi and his belt and sometimes some of his weapons in and out of his place. And he was really friendly to me. And so I would go talk to him and, you know, throw the ball at his door till he would come out and talk to me. And I don't know.
Maybe that was something to do with it. Eventually, when I was about 12 or 13, I started training in his dojo, and I loved it. It was an an Okinawan short and rue style of karate. I loved that it was it was very fast and aggressive.
We did lots of sparring. You know, it was it was a blast. And and, you know, when I was in my mid teens, I started getting interested in meditation and whatnot. Again, my father was one of my first influences on that. He taught me a little bit of Buddhist meditation. I mean, yeah, he was of that era of sort of Vietnam hippies. You know?
He he was very interested in Buddhism, and so I learned a little bit of meditation from him and a little bit from my martial arts teacher. And so I started practicing that, and I had some really fascinating experiences with meditation. And so I got more and more interested in it, and it became a part of of my life moving forward. And then we we started also doing inter being introduced to qigong practices and whatnot. Most of those practices were really built around body hardening, kinda like a Goju Sanchian. So I was fortunate because my teacher, he also had a black belt in Goju Ryu because that was his first art. And so we did a lot of Goju Ryu at the same time, and I spent a lot of time, you know, meet meeting with his first Goju teacher was, John Roseberry, who passed away a couple of years ago.
And he was a Marine Corps judo champion. And so a lot of things really fit for me. I loved all this all the karate and the judo, and it was this amazing thing for me. When I hit my twenties and I was in college, I got introduced to another fellow who was a goju practitioner, again, Vietnam era. And he had lived in in Okinawa and and trained there, and and he was also involved in Matayoshi Kobudo. And I really was interested in learning the weapons, and so I got a relationship with him. And we we had a really amazing sort of mentor student relationship all the way up until he passed away just a few years ago.
And and so he he taught me a lot. When he would come to town, I would basically quit everything I was doing for that time, and I would just spend all day with him learning and training and just having conversations. And he he one day, I think I was about 25, he said, you know, by the time you're 30, you need to stop doing this stuff. I want you to start practicing Chinese martial arts because I want your health to be better longer.
He said, look at me. You know, my knees and ankles are terrible. All my contemporaries, our knees and ankles are terrible. He's he said, you know, a lot of these older guys in in Goju and Chonoru, some of them are really sick. Some of them don't do so well as they get older, and you need and he's like, I'm worried, and I want you to have, health cultivation. And I think, you know, he that there's a couple things that struck me. 1 is is, wow, I can do something different if I want to, and that's okay.
And 2 is that, yeah, my long term health is something I should look at. And I started thinking about, as I would meet teachers, how old they were, how healthy they were, whether I wanted to to be like them. What about them was something I wanted to replicate in me, whether it was the way they acted, the way they carried themselves, the their health, the way they performed their martial art. You know? And so at at the same time, you know, long story short, I had an opportunity to go to Taiwan that didn't really pan out, for practice reasons because I was gonna go study Taiwan go study Chinese martial arts and medicine in Taiwan with a friend of his, his family. And it turned out that I couldn't get licensed in the United States with a foreign apprenticeship very easily, so I decided to go to school. So I went to I went and got my master's degree in Chinese medicine, and then I went to China after that.
But while I was in, Chinese medicine school, I made friends with a a guy who did and, And we get became really good friends, and and he shared with me some of his art. And I started to really kinda fall in love with it, and so I would, you know, I would train what I had already learned, and then I would start to practice some of these Chinese martial arts. And I I really liked the flexibility that I was having in my body from it and and, some of the relaxed power development things that I wasn't getting from it. And so I went to China, and I worked with some people. I was in China. And mainly I was mainly in China doing Chinese medicine. And then I came back to the States, and I was teaching at a Chinese medicine college.
And there was a a friend that I had who brought his teacher over, who was a a lineage holder in a in a Chinese Baqo Jiang system. And I met him and his number one student, and they just blew me away with how well they could move and how healthy they were. And he was, you know, the he was pretty old at the time, and, you know, he did some things. He hit me a couple of times, and I was really shocked that he was how small he was and how hard he could hit. And at the same time, as I got to know him, he'd cured himself of cancer, and, you know, he was just this amazing fire plug. And I was like, okay. I wanna learn a little more about this.
So I I spent time with them while they were here. And then when they went back to China, I went straight back to China and spent time with them there. And I would go I was going to China over and over again for a few weeks at a time working with them until he passed away. And then his his main lineage holder, I would spend time with in China and also bring him over to United States, and he would stay with me. And I would study with him there. And that was that's more or less the gist of the martial arts background. Layered on top of all of this is I really had an interest in Taoism from my teens, and it probably was sparked from, you know, kung fu movies and meditation.
I don't really know. You know?
But I would I studied it I studied it in college. You know, and I I read a lot about it. When I was in college, I took I studied both Japanese and Chinese and classical Chinese because I really wanted to be able to have access to, the literature in its original language because there's not that much translated. You know, I became really acutely aware that they were the same books over and over translated and sometimes really poorly. And I didn't like I wanted some agency in my ability to learn. So I studied these languages. And honestly, I I really started to have a I don't know, I started to get really disappointed, I guess I would say, because the learning Daoism in the West was a real problem.
There were most people couched it in terms of qigong and tai chi, and that's Daoism. And I just started to really you know, I knew that's not what it was because I could read about it. And so I started to feel like, well, maybe this just isn't for me in this lifetime. You know? So in the early 2000, you know, I had a friend who I'm I had a friend in another community that I I got involved with that was trying to do some sort of resurrection of Taoist education in United States. And we made we became friends, and that that community was again another disappointment. But one of the beauties was that's where I met my partner in Parting Clouds, my the person I run Parting Clouds with, Josh Painter.
We met in that community. And, also, this other friend of ours who he had a teacher in China, and he said, you know, I'm gonna go see this teacher. Why don't you guys come with me? And we said we decided, yeah. Okay. Let's go. Let's give it one more shot.
And so we went to China. We made we met this teacher, and she took us in with open arms and, really opened a lot of doors to other teachers and other education as far as Daoist education goes. And and that really led to this amazing amount of momentum where, you know, legitimate Taoism from China became something that I could have access to. And, you know, the rest you can say is history. Through that whole process, we formed parting clouds purely just to help people avoid disappointment. You know? Because we said, why don't we create an organization so people can learn Taoism the way we're learning it, the way we've been taught.
And we have a pipeline now to take people to China so they can meet our teachers and get involved in it. That's how it started, and it's really become something huge. Now we have students in, you know, England, France, Canada, Russia, Australia, Ireland, United States, Canada, the Caribbean, Mexico. I mean, we have students all over the place. It's crazy. And, the community just keeps growing and growing, and everybody is so hungry that it keeps pushing us along as well. And so
[00:17:20 - 00:18:19] Adam Mitchell
That's that's probably that I'm coming up with 2 different questions that I'd like to hear. But first, I'm curious about, as a young man, you said that that sort of that seed was planted somehow as a young man. You started to have that interest early on in Taoism, and whether that was through some exposure from the martial arts and then continued reading, and the kung fu you had said and, you know, some of the early kung fu, kung fu TV and kung fu theater. What do you feel you know, a lot of times as a young person, we will find those things that excite us and really inspire us, but life goes on and we move on from those things. Maybe we keep a little bit of an interest, but more often than not, we move forward in our life. What was it about that was that kept you focused and really kind of kept your talents into that interest so that you could expand in such a magnificent way that you have?
[00:18:20 - 00:20:48] Jack Schaefer
That's a cool question. You know, it's definitely something I've thought about.
Like, why me? Why this? I'm a, you know, this guy from Colorado in the United States. Why so much interest in Asian culture? And some of it, I I can't answer. You know, there's a Chinese word for we call. Like, it's like almost like destiny. Like, you just there's some sort of affinity or destiny that just happens.
But I do think that part of part of it is that there and it's I think it's one of the reasons I loved martial arts too. And I really liked the Japanese martial arts when I was a kid. Was there the structure really appeals to me, you know, Because when you, you know, you you know, I knew every day this is how I would train. You know?
I had I would get up. I would do this. I would do this. And for whatever reason, structure really appealed to me. It really I felt comfortable and at home in it. And Taoism, for whatever reason, it's a way of trying to understand the the structure of the universe. You know?
There's a there's a certain cosmology to it. There's a certain aspect of what it means to be a person. Like, what is our why are we here? What are we doing here?
And where do we go? What happens at the end? How do we get a better end? You know, it's a lot about all of these sort of structures. And I think that that answered a lot of questions for me as well as created some. But it rather than just kind of bopping along, you know, I I grew as a teenager. I had some I had some rough friends. You know?
And some of them some of them are dead now. Some of them went to jail. You know? They weren't all in me. They were, like, friends, but they weren't my martial arts friends. But I knew them from school, and we would hang out together peripherally. You know? And and looking back at it, the structure was something that was really important for me then, and I think that it really kept me going forward in a good way too.
And I think those bigger questions about the universe, where do we come from? You know, what do we turn into when we die?
Do we come back again? You know, if we do, how do I come back again in a good way or not? Or all of those kinds of things were were I think what partly appealed to me.
[00:20:50 - 00:22:17] Adam Mitchell
Yeah. It's really well said. I can identify with a lot of that. What do you feel there's kind of 2 sides to this question here, going into a very different philosophical and in many ways spiritual spiritually contextual and historically contextual, all this learning from a Judeo Christian value system of a westerner. Right? So, you know, young man from Colorado, you have this whole suite of ethics and morals, that you're entering into Taoism with. But then the other side from my experience as someone who studies traditional Japanese martial arts, it's not only entering as an American, but it's extracting this very unique cultural set of values and philosophical prince principles and ideas and theories that are very, very nonwestern.
How how did you face this, to be able to, and I know it's a really broad question, so you can distill it down to what you think best suits. But going in as a as a young Westerner, how did you have to adjust yourself? And how do you find that you need to adjust the teachings that come out of Chinese Daoism so that they best serve that western mindset and paradigm that you're speaking to so often with your students?
[00:22:18 - 00:25:59] Jack Schaefer
Yeah. That is a challenge. Right? Because, you know, like, Daoism is it's the native religion of China, and it's built on so many things that, you know, Chinese people might take for granted because it's part of their cultural legacy. And we definitely have a different cultural legacy here. Even people who are atheists still have built into them a lot of aspects of Judeo Christian values without even thinking about it or knowing it. It's just part of being who we are.
And those things, I would say this, honestly, Adam, it's a an ongoing cause for question. Because I will, you know, personally, much less I mean, with our students all the time.
You know, this happens. But, personally, I'll read something, say, in a scriptural text or whatnot. And I, a lot of times, left a pause and and just really see how I'm interpreting that. Am I interpreting that as, you know, somebody who was born into a Catholic family or, you know, and and like like word sin or something? What does sin mean? You know, they they have some we use this word sin in Daoism, but it's it has a different flavor to it, you know, and a different way of thinking about it and different consequences and all of those things. Just like, you know, we take precepts.
And precepts, you know, they're it's kinda like in in Christianity, you know, you have 10 the 10 commandments. And so but the precepts are a different they're they're slightly different. They're not just rules, but they're also opportunities for for inquisition and opportunities for sort of rectification of behavior. So if you take, like, the the the precept against, say, killing, which is the easy one, it's easy to be like, well, I just won't kill. You can take it as just don't kill. But what we're actually encouraged to do and we encourage our students to do is it's not just not about killing, but it's about nurturing life. So we think about approaching things from a benevolent point of view or compassionate point of view.
So, you know, what would be the opposite of killing? It would be sort of compassion and benevolence or something. And so we try and look at them a little bit deeper. The the the rule itself is just a guardrail. Right? Just okay. Just don't kill something.
Just stay on the road. Just don't kill. But, ultimately, when it comes to cultivation, as a person, we wanna go beyond that where we don't even need the guardrail. So it becomes a spontaneous reaction to do something that's completely compassionate or benevolent. You know? And those are places we run into because our gut reaction to something like a precept or, you know, a commandment is feel a lot of people resist those. They don't wanna be told what to do, especially, you know, Americans do not like being told what to do. You know?
We we resist it even if it's good for us. Just it's our gut reaction. And so we'd have to sometimes really pause and explore the meaning behind the thing and take it apart so we don't get caught up in maybe the word, you know, like sin or or admonition or something. You know? It's tricky.
[00:26:01 - 00:29:31] Adam Mitchell
Yeah. Yeah. You know, oftentimes, I hear my teacher who's fortunately had a lot of exposure to American culture when he was in the Japanese military. He was stationed here in the United States and did some partnership work with the American government. So we understand how to communicate to us. And oftentimes, there's this expectancy that we're not going to show up with cultural literacy. And therefore, he's able to kind of speak to us so that we best get, you know, we're able to best understand his lessons.
However, I think that there's this there's this missed understanding. It's an understanding that I don't know if it's ignored or if we don't have a willingness as Westerners to step into, but it's this lingering word that exists in all of the, the arts that we're disciplined in, and that's the Do. And in Chinese, of course, it's the Dao. From my observation, Jack, a lot of the work that we do is there is this external expression of defense or even preemptive attack when we know that the outcome, if we don't do this, is going to be suffering, whether it be to myself or someone else. So we stand in this place of preventing more suffering, and we study this. But then there's the internal, which is challenging my own inner demons, challenging my own inner struggles, my own emotions, and where I'm really wrapped wrapped around the axle, whether that be in past trauma, whether that be in my own fears. And I train, and I push myself, whether that's punching maki water, whether that's grappling with my students or whatever it is.
There's this internal work as well as this external work. And, ultimately, for me, the craft and the way is to make myself a better human being so that I can be at a higher level of service to those that I either come in their path in life or they come into mine. But how whatever that looks like, we enter into each other's life. And very rarely do I look for the effectiveness the street effectiveness, let's just say. Very, very I I almost never wanna have the conversation about battle readiness or prepping or, you know, any of that. I think a lot of that is fear based. At a very surface level, that is my understanding of how we look at the do.
The aiki of aikido, they have their own, path for that, and that is through aiki. The juke dough, they have their own path for that, but it's the same dough. Yeah. I'm curious to hear, how you how what I'm saying lands with you. And, I'd like to hear your reflection on that and how you feel through your martial arts experience as well as through your own study of Taoism, what it means to you.
[00:29:31 - 00:32:57] Jack Schaefer
Oh, yeah. Thanks for asking that question. So, you know, if we look at the word, you you know, the the word in Japanese, do and Chinese. Means like a path or road, Which is really fascinating because there's another word, which means to arrive. You know? Yeah. They're like homophones.
1 means to arrive, and another one just means the path. When we're talking about Taoism or judo or karate dough or whatever, that dough is the dough, the path, or the way, which really implies within it that there is no arrival. It's just the path. So like a new age sort of a new age philosophy right now, people will talk about, you know, it's the process. You know, enjoy the process, like, that kind of thing. I really think that's what we're talking about is is the process. And so what is the process?
If if if the process is a a path that I'm walking on, then I have to ask myself, well, what's the path that I wanna walk on? Do I wanna walk on a path of, say, drugs and alcohol, violence? Do I wanna walk on a path of of, you know, anger and and passion and aggression? Because I can I can then transform anything into a a DAO? You know? The DAO of passion and aggression.
The DAO of violence. The DAO of you know?
Because if it's just a path, it's just a process. And so, obviously, that, you know, no nobody in their right mind wants to do those paths. Right? You just mentioned you wanna you wanna do this path that when people cross you in their lives that that they come out of it in a good way, in a better way. You know? And I think that's that would really be the ultimate thing. Right? The making life better for us and everybody around us.
Everybody around us to have happiness and and joy and a chance to become a realized person. And so anything we would do as a path and as a Dell, we would wanna do it in that way. You know? And that's where martial arts gets tricky because there are plenty of people who practice it in a in a used used fear based in a fear based way where the only reason I practice this is for that one time that maybe in my life somebody will try and bug me. You know? And I think that's a really weird way to live because, one, it's it's completely distrustful of everybody around you. So it's it's actually not leading to helping other people.
It's just being afraid of other people and making everybody else an other. You know? And for for Tuan Jin Lom and Daoists or the complete reality Dragon Gate sect, which I belong to, one of our ideals is that there's non duality in humans. So we're we're not actually separate from each other, not in our ultimate self. And so why would I be at odds with anybody else then and create that? It doesn't Can
[00:32:57 - 00:33:08] Adam Mitchell
you can you unpack that a little bit more when you just so we understand it better, because I really wanna get my head around that one point because I think it's very important about the the, the non duality.
[00:33:08 - 00:35:49] Jack Schaefer
So, you know, we we see the human existence as having two sides. We call xing and ming or inner nature and our sort of circumstantial trajectory. And circumstantial trajectory is the the you that you are now. So when I look in the mirror, the person I see born in this town from these parents, it's it's the me I was born as, plus the decisions I make in this life. It's all a function of karma. You know? So, you know, I can't help that I was born this, you know, this goofy white goofy white guy in Colorado.
Like, I have no control over that. But that's part of my ming, my circumstantial trajectory. And then all the decisions I make, whether I decide to steal or not steal, be kind or not kind, all of those affect the trajectory of my life. That's the here and now of me. Aside from that, we have what we call sing or inner nature. And our inner nature is a it's a part of us that is a reflection of the, not a reflection of, a thread of the DAO itself. And so we think of the DAO as, we were talking before we started recording.
The DAO is this sort of cosmic emptiness that's responsible for creation. So it can be simultaneously empty and create all things. And if you were to ascribe a nature to it, it would be cosmic goodness or benevolence. It's just it's just pure kindness. We all are are within us. Our inner nature is that, And our inner nature is a thread of that. So we're not separate.
We all have that piece of the DAO. So that non duality means that you and I both have this threat of us that is the DAO. We're not separate from each other. So a metaphor that I really like is you can imagine if you took a ball and you put a light inside of it, and then you poked a bunch of holes in the ball and you looked at it in a dark room, you would see light coming out all those little pinholes.
But so, hey. They look like a whole bunch of different lights, but, actually, they're just one light that's in the middle of the ball reflecting out through those holes. That's our inner nature, and that's the non duality. So if we view people as, look, we're the same. There's no separate between me and you. That actually changes our ability to offer compassion to other people in a way that, you know, is much more profound than just being like, oh, just be a nice person.
[00:35:52 - 00:37:15] Adam Mitchell
What are some of the what are some of the areas that you see in this? How do I ask this question? I know what I wanna ask in my head, but putting it to words sometimes I trip over. How how do we what from your experience, being a Brazilian jujitsu practitioner and black belt, having a deep experience in both Japanese and Chinese arts as well as the traditional Chinese healing arts, Chinese medicine. Where are some of the areas that you feel people most misunderstand that area of the dome and they don't apply it and they pass by, or they they and in a sense, is it is it something through, selfishness or greed or vanity, and they're doing something in that's not truly a path to the doubt? Or is it something oftentimes that they may be completely naive to? And sadly, they miss it.
From your observation, and we can talk inside the martial context is in the martial arts realm or not, because I'm I'm certain there are examples in cases outside of that that you've witnessed that would be very valuable to us. But what comes to mind with that?
[00:37:15 - 00:41:42] Jack Schaefer
That's interesting. Where do we start? So I think there's sort of two sides to this this conversation. If I look at, like, bjj and, you know, that's a jutsu. That's an art. And I can say that there are some really wonderful, sweet people in Brazilian jiu jitsu. I've made some really great friends there.
But by and large, as an art, it generates a lot of self confidence, but it doesn't always generate nice people. And that I I don't exactly know why. Maybe it's because it's a jutsu.
I don't know. You know? They do spend a lot of time trying to win. Like, the focus is on winning all the time, and the focus is on sort of combat all the time. You know? Maybe it's something to do with that. I don't really know.
But I do think in traditional martial arts, you know, the does, you know, the karate do and judo and some of the Chinese martial arts, we don't usually use that word in describing them, but they definitely fall into that. There's there is an opportunity there for self improvement as a person. If one chooses to follow the the way. But I do think sometimes it doesn't really pan out because of naivety. Because people feel like, well, if I just go to class and I just practice and then I go home, I go to class and I practice, and I go home, then then I'll become a better person. And I don't think that always happens. I've met some met I'm sure you have too.
Met plenty of people in traditional martial arts who are not nice people or good people either. And I think that that's because they're not necessarily focused on the, you know, what what are they cultivating? They're just cultivating discipline. You know? And that discipline is definitely important. I mean, as a kid, that was, I think, a thing that really got me through. It's just, you know, going to going to class, practicing at home, going to class, practicing home.
It kept me out of trouble where some of my friends were in bad ways. You know? But you need to apply that discipline to something. And that application of discipline to being, like, a kinder, gentler person, a person that helps other people, those kinds of things. I think that's the step that I think a lot of people drop the ball on because they become really, really strong and really powerful and really disciplined, but maybe not good people. You know? And I think applying that discipline to other things is really important.
1 of my one of my kung fu teachers used to say he's like, there's a word we you know, when you look at the word kung fu or kung fu, you know, we we think of it as, like, skill through effort. Right? But if you break the break it down, the second word has it has 2 horizontal lines through it. And so he's like, if you look at the metaphor of this, the one horizontal line is 1 person. 2 horizontal lines through that word means 2 people. So if you just have you by yourself, you get which means big power.
So discipline in a lot of ways is gone. It's like it's really powerful, but there's no there's no skill in it necessarily. But as soon as you throw the other person in there, like you think of applications of your forms or something, doing the form in the air is one thing. Doing it with another person is a whole other thing. Right? And then you get Kung Fu. Sure. And so if you take that discipline and then you apply that discipline that you cultivated into interaction with other people, then you really get somewhere special.
Because then I can apply my my, you know, my discipline and my into how I interact with other people, how I make decisions, how I, you know, spend my time, etcetera, etcetera. You know, so I think people just kind of stop at discipline and they feel like that's cultivation. And it it is only kindergarten. We need something past that.
[00:41:45 - 00:44:51] Adam Mitchell
That's fascinating. And in the context of cultivating the DAO and in going back to some of the what you were sharing, and I was trying to kind of pair it together. I I recently finished Hicks and Gracie's book, and it was absolutely fascinating how he goes from this world. We're gonna talk about Brazilian jujitsu here. He goes from this world of a fighter, a street fighter, and and coming up in this family and the interpersonal challenges and and and, connections that they all had. But it was a completely insane and bold story. But in the end, his highest point is found through his lowest point of losing his son and where towards the end of the book, he finds himself sitting building this beautiful altar to a statue of Ganesh, who he wasn't Hindu or anything.
He found it in on the beach. He just found the statue, and he applies all of his time to making and crafting this little altar, and then crafting this this plateau that he built on a tree where to meditate on and to connect with his son. And at this moment, he realized the connection that he had to this family of blue jays and to the ocean, and he discovers in this, he he used to hate cats, but he found this cat he befriended and became part of his family. And there was this sort of almost very, very deep and highly concentric connection that all of a sudden he found himself in that was, and as I read it, I I tried to tried to sort of read what wasn't being said, which was that this is beyond words.
It's hard to explain. And as you were talking, I was I was reflecting on that, and I was also reflecting on the Dow that can be explained is not the Dow. Right? Or the Dow that can be defined is not the Dow. And I find myself in that place too, where even my own children have said, dad, why are you still doing this? You know, you're 51 years old and just beating yourself and, you know, you've been doing this long enough. It's okay to, like but you can't explain it.
You can't explain it. It's hard to really, to to go to that place. And I'm curious to hear, is there a way that you, boy, how do I say this without sort of short changing it or or or sort of minimizing an explanation? But how do we put this to words? Because I felt what what, what mister Gracie was writing in this book, I could feel what he was writing. I but I I could feel that even he couldn't put it to words and I can feel that when I try to explain it to people, it's like, I can't do it. I can't do it.
Is what I'm saying to you. Do you understand what I'm saying? And maybe I might even ask, do you have an answer for that?
[00:44:51 - 00:50:17] Jack Schaefer
I don't know. I mean, this is a this is something that I definitely contemplate in myself. Like, you know, why do I why do I wanna do this anymore? And, you know, instead, I could just go, like, go mountain biking or something, you know, or take up running or some other thing. And I I don't I can't I can't explain it personally.
Maybe maybe maybe it's because it's not boring. Maybe it's because the the it chips the corners off all the time. It's smoothing me out and chipping all the corners off constantly. You know? I do I do feel like and this might be I'd be love to hear your thoughts on this. I do feel like my motivations as a martial arts practitioner definitely have changed massively, you know, through my entire lifetime. You know, I think there were times when I had no idea why I was practicing it.
I just did. I think there were times when it was more about the exercise or there were definitely times when it was really about the the combat, you know, the fighting and, you know, the the fear and being able to protect myself. And, sometimes I feel like, oh, maybe it's just like macho dance or something. Like, you know, learning a new form and being able to do it is sort of like some sort of macho dance. I don't know. And I even you know, a few years back, I completely paused my own training for a few months and just did other exercise because I really needed to explore my relationship with it and violence. And, you know, how I was really curious if if it was creating anger in me or frustration in me or, interest in or relation to violence.
Because we do we do what we cultivate is what we are. You know? I mean, if you grow something, you you grow a plant like it's the way it is, and that's what it becomes. And as a human, we're malleable enough that we can cultivate ourselves in certain ways. And I really wanted to explore whether it was making me an aggressive violent person, which is not something I really wanted to be. I wanted to be a capable person. God forbid if I ever had to, you you know, hurt somebody.
I don't want to. You know? But I really had to explore that. And and when I came back to it after a couple months of not practicing, of just doing exercise, you know, and stretching and, you know, kettlebells and riding my bike and stuff, My relationship to it was different. And, I realized that as I practiced, I needed to not hyper-focus on application or, you know, what it meant to do this movement on on somebody all the time. You know, because in order to be really good at something, you have to put somebody there in your imagination.
And then when you're putting somebody there in your imagination, you're also spending time imagining hurting people. And I had to really work work on how how could I still do this thing that I really enjoy doing without cultivating that. And that's been a challenge in, you know, turning things into more drills and exercises and, you know, things like that. You know? I also you know, at the same time with COVID, you know, I took a I took a break from being on the mat in jujitsu, you know, up for obvious reasons. And and, it was really interesting to see what the space from that was like too. And I do feel like, wow.
Spending that much time in a competitive environment also just makes you competitive. And that's good in some ways, but it, you know, every every sword has two sides. And that's not always the healthiest thing for us either to constantly be competitive because that deescalates and and whatnot. So if we circle that back to a a DAO, a path, right, That just means that it's something that I don't have an answer for. I'm constantly working on trying to make sure that it's the right path and that it it's happening in a good way knowing full well that I haven't arrived. You know? But I made a conscious decision that if I ever felt like training martial arts was making me, a worse version of myself, then I could put it down and walk away.
But I haven't been there yet. You know? And I think that's because I'm I'm going at it completely consciously.
[00:50:21 - 00:54:11] Adam Mitchell
Yeah. That's a that's a that's a strong reflection there. I I struggle with that too and have I'm glad you brought that forward. In the Japanese traditions that we study, it's, there's a strong emphasis on the sword. Right? Of course. And with that, there's the short sword.
There's the tanto or the knife. There's the halberd or the naginata. There's all these swords. Well, the laceration to the human body, wherever it is, is an incredibly traumatic thing, not only to have done to you, but also to do to someone. And these arts were made to be highly efficient and to have, if not one if there's more than one cut, then the first cut has to be has to have a biomechanical reason to get the body to respond in a certain way. So as an instructor and as a student, you go deep into these the response of these injuries and what the outcome is that you're trying to accomplish rather than just sitting there and smacking sticks and playing pretend. To truly understand this means you're truly understanding the breaking and destruction of the human body.
And cutting across someone's neck with a tanto is a horrible, horrible thing. And even when we're simulating it, Jack, like you're saying, you're only simulating it. However, when you do it in in those few seconds add up to minutes and, you know, they become hours and become days weeks, You exist in the state of applied trauma. You're doing this horrible thing to someone. You're simulating it over and over and over again. And as the year stack up in the study, as you know, it weighs on you. It's a it is a shadow that's always looming over you.
And I have struggled maybe really in the last 5 years around how how do you how do you express it? How do you manage that? How do you how do you turn that into something beneficial? And then, you know, you realize that a healer can't address the pain or the suffering without understanding the root of that suffering and understanding that pain. And, you know, the doctor can't treat the cancer unless they fully understand the cancer. So oftentimes, I find that going to the most the darkest places for a deeper understanding and to study and train and come to terms with it allows me to be able to find and to be able to walk within the darkest places in myself, and to have that practice to be able to do that. I don't know if that's making sense, but it's the best of where I am right now with that because to truly train yeah. Yeah. The combat sports, you go for the tap, you go for the flag, you go for the point, whatever.
But when we like, even with the kung fu, they are studying highly combative ways of destroying the human body. There has to be a balance to that in in in a meditation practice and a healing practice. Even in old judo, the whole end of judo, the highest level of judo is healing and putting the human body back together and resuscitating someone. If you don't have that, you're burning the candle at both ends, and you will end up burning out and becoming mentally damaged and emotionally damaged as a result of that, I feel, if you continue training. And I think that being able to recognize that what it is that you're studying and why and then also looking at why outside of those reasons like you shared of just of winning or victory doesn't always create the best person.
In fact, it can create a broken person. I think as leaders like yourself, I'm sure that you're very mindful of that so that for your own students, they don't fall into that trap.
[00:54:12 - 00:56:06] Jack Schaefer
Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, making sure like like for ourselves, making sure that we don't we don't take we don't take things lightly. You know, like like we're talking about sword, for example. You know, this takes me back.
So way back in the nineties. I remember I was teaching a a a COVIDO seminar, and we were doing this staff thing. And there was a kid there, and he was trying to help his this his girlfriend. And he was explaining, like, just kind of off to the side in in the break time of the seminar. And he's like, and this is where you crush their skull, and then you stand up and you feel real good about yourself. And I remember that I mean, to the here it is.
Here we are, like, 30 years later. And I can still remember how shocking that was to hear somebody say that. And I think for ourselves, first of all, just being completely aware of of the consequences of what we do, you know, of the of our actions. You know, we we are going to sow some consequence no matter what we do. You know? And being aware of that. And then as a teacher, being able to explain that there's a consequence to every action. You know?
So there's small ones like block punch kind of things, but there's also a consequence consequence to hurting somebody. You know? There's a consequence to, you know, and these aren't these are things that it's now it's more than just like I might get in trouble. Consequences. But and you carry everybody's had that thing where they can remember hurting somebody, and they carry that consequences.
[00:56:07 - 00:56:11] Adam Mitchell
Thinking about that, Jack. I was just thinking about exactly that point. Yes.
[00:56:11 - 00:56:47] Jack Schaefer
Physically or emotionally. Right? You carry that with you. There's always that sense of regret. You know? Like, I even if it's like a complete accident. I mean, you know, one time I broke one of my best friend's arms, you know, while we were sparring.
We were sparring full contact, and I broke his arm. And to this day, like, I think about that all the time. You know? And it was a complete accident, let alone being something that was on purpose, like, really trying to hurt somebody. You know? And I think communicating that to our students is really important. You know?
[00:56:47 - 00:58:17] Adam Mitchell
You that that point about the the trauma of hurting someone, you know, every I think almost every adult our age at least can remember and call back to when we were young, elementary school, middle school, and remember when we were part of some part of a group or maybe as an individual, we targeted someone, bullied someone, or we stood by and watched it happen and didn't do anything. And that has has stayed with us. And what I think is really interesting, a lot of times after teaching children, since we're talking about the experience of a child, is that a parent who hasn't had that type of exposure to violence or hurt, They'll oftentimes bring their kid to martial arts as I'm sure you've experienced. And, like, for example, you get a kid, a young man, maybe 7th or 8th grade, who's been doing judo or bjj for 5 years. They are not going to bully someone because it's not because they're but because they know what it's like to hurt someone. They know what it's like to be physical and manipulate another person, to take a person down and to get taken down themselves. There's this understanding of impact.
There's this understanding of being actually losing your sense of, your state of self for that moment and it being under the control of someone else.
[00:58:17 - 00:58:18] Jack Schaefer
Yeah.
[00:58:18 - 00:58:33] Adam Mitchell
And I think that's a really, I think in that sense, it offers a very protective shield for a, for a young person to protect them from what it is that we're talking about right now. That's really interesting. That's really interesting.
[00:58:33 - 00:59:10] Jack Schaefer
Yeah. Especially if they have the right kind of coaching in that where, you know, they they don't they don't enjoy the power of taking control of other people. And, you know, I think if they get coached that, hey. This is a good thing. You know? Be powerful. Control other people.
Because then then I think that can build a bully. You know? But the the kids who are coached in such a way that, like, yeah, this this sucks. It's not it's not a good thing. You don't, you know, you don't wanna do this to somebody else. It's then they won't do it either.
[00:59:11 - 00:59:26] Adam Mitchell
Yeah. Jack, I wanna shift gears for a second. I'd like I'm wondering is, as we wrap up here, I'm wondering if you could share with us about your current work, your organization, and some of the impact that you're making.
[00:59:26 - 00:59:29] Jack Schaefer
Yeah. So you're asking about parting clouds. Right?
[00:59:30 - 00:59:30] Adam Mitchell
Yeah.
[00:59:30 - 01:05:18] Jack Schaefer
Yeah. So parting so, you know, I I have kinda have have 3 faces in the world. You know, I have my my martial arts teaching face, and I have my Chinese medicine clinic. And then, you know, one of my biggest passions is this parting clouds, doused education. And that's the the organization that I spoke of at the beginning that I started with Josh Painter. And parting clouds, you know, it started as a walk in the in the mountains where we were just talking about, you know, what was missing in our own education and that we would like to change the future for other people. And so that really has become this amazing passion project where it started out with a really small group of of people and just trying to expose them to teaching.
And it became more and more structured and more and more structured. And now what we have is we've developed this community of Western Daoists, people who wanna study Daoism in an authentic way for Westerners. And that does it's still authentic, but what we have to do is we have to realize that we're not, you know, Chinese people.
We're we're grown up in the West. And so we have to we teach it in English and we have to explain things in English, and we have to find ways to make it accessible to foreigners. You know? And then the other aspect of it is that we want to avoid all aspects of weird, kitschy, chinoiserie, you know, where we're we're trying to, like, mimic being, like, out of a movie or something and expecting people to to act like they're culturally Chinese people because that's not the case either. You know? And that's been a really interesting thing. And so what we end up developing is it first, we developed a curriculum that was a few months long, and then we figured out the things that we're missing.
And now we've we've got the organization as such that, you know, our beginning our beginning intensive classes are weekly. They're once a week for about an hour. And they last last 52 weeks. And we take people from historical understandings of the formation of Daoism and Chinese religion, and we hold a thread all the way through that to what it means to be a 21st century, you know, western Taoist practitioner. And we go through, you know, historical precedences and practices and, meditation and, you know, all the things that it means to be a practicing Daoist philosophy and doctrine. If after the 1st year, some people are happy and they they're done and they just wanna be, you know, members of the community, and some people wanna keep studying. And so our 2nd year, we go through these 4 books that we've translated, from Chinese into English, and they're for sale on Amazon.
But we go through those and we deliver the doctrine and explain it sort of word by word so that people understand, like, you know, how Taoists think about this, how Taoists think about that. It's a way of of understanding, you know, when somebody says, well, how am I supposed to think about suicide? You know, then we can look at what the Taoist explanation of something like suicide is or, you know, any other pressing issue, fighting with your spouse. I don't know. You know? There's all kinds of opportunities through the doctrine. After the 2nd year of study, some people wanna go on and learn, like, ritual and ritual medicine and things like that.
And that's really what the last the we have we have a couple of years of curriculum of that if people choose to do that. And not everybody does. That's some people just wanna, you know, just be a practicing person and just understand Taoism and apply it to their life and be members of parting clouds as a community. And so all of our classes are primarily online because we have students all over the world, and then we do retreats. So we're right now, we're in the middle of planning a retreat that'll be in, Massachusetts next fall. And, you know, we've historically, we've done retreats to China as well. And so now that China's back open, we were just there a month ago, and we're figuring out our sort of next, student retreat to China as well.
We also may do a trip to Taiwan and or Malaysia as well. So that's more or less, you know, what it looks like. But the goal of it really is just to help Westerners just learn about Taoism in a way that's accessible and authentic. Because, you know, there's a lot of problematic ways of of teaching DAO ism in the West. And and people, for example, people say, oh, you know, DAO ism is go with the flow, You know?
So I'm gonna do my DAO, man. But doing your DAO is really just a, for most people, just a hedonistic way to live. It's just a way of saying, I'm going to do things my way, but your way may not be a good way. It may not even be a righteous or benevolent way of living. You know? It may just be a selfish and greedy way of living. So we have to understand what does it mean to to be in alignment with the DAO, then go with that flow.
One of the ways to be with the Dow be in alignment with the Dow and go with that flow is to be a benevolent person, you know, to be a compassionate person.
[01:05:18 - 01:05:40] Adam Mitchell
So Do you find that I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but I know that there's the the compliments in Japan to Buddhism and Taoism. Do you find that in Western society bump up against a lot of people, seeing Daoism as a conflicting body of faith to their maybe their Christian faith or their Jewish faith?
[01:05:40 - 01:07:19] Jack Schaefer
Yeah. Sometimes people do, you know? Yeah. You know, Taoism incorporates a lot of Buddhism and Chinese Buddhism incorporates a lot of Taoism. They're really pretty tight, you know, in China. And in the west, there definitely are depends on how tied into somebody's faith they are. Some people really, you know, only go so far, but they're they're, you know, really devoted to their faith.
And, you know, we don't expect anybody to to, like, quit something and Sure. We and and convert necessarily because you can I think you can use one religion to understand another one pretty well? You know, can sometimes just give you a new perspective or clear clearer perspective. But we have students who, you know, they're they're serious, you know, serious Christians or or Jews. And and they're still they're they're members. They've studied with us, but they're still you know, they're in their faith, and that's where they they belong and they're happiest. You know, our teacher, she she it was really important to her that people don't just disregard where they came from. You know?
So but it is different for everybody. Some people really do want to just completely cut ties with everything that they were, and some people don't. And everybody has their own their own color and flavor on that.
[01:07:20 - 01:07:52] Adam Mitchell
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jack. I appreciate you taking the time, and sharing with us and having this great conversation. I also want to thank you for the work that you're doing and the light that you're putting out in the world, the teaching that you're offering people and helping their lives. I'm certain it's meaningful and I'm certain it's making an impact far beyond what you'll ever be able to see. And that's I think that's such a beautiful thing.
And thank you so much for your time, and thank you for joining us on this podcast episode.
[01:07:53 - 01:08:06] Jack Schaefer
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
And I really I I appreciate your your, candor, and I appreciate a lot of the questions you ask because those are they're really thought provoking, and they're questions that need to be asked. You know?
